#33: Kink
COMMUNITY VOICE: Amy | HEALTHCARE EXPERTS: Dulcinea Alex Pitagora, PhD; Dia Dynasty | COMMUNITY REVIEWER: Jennifer Schwartz, LMSW
SHOW NOTES
Whose whip is it, anyway?
This episode is for anyone curious about kink - whether you're exploring, dabbling, or wanting to understand it better
Especially useful for:
Queer folks interested in kink as part of sexual expression and identity
People new to kink who want accurate, shame-free information
Partners and friends wanting to understand and support loved ones who practice kink
Healthcare providers seeking to offer affirming, knowledgeable care
Anyone wanting to improve communication and consent in their sex life, kinky or not
Why this matters
Kink is often misunderstood or stigmatized, but for many people, it's a meaningful way to explore pleasure, power, vulnerability, and connection. For queer folks especially, kink can offer:
A space to step into or out of power dynamics in ways that feel liberating
Community with others who understand non-normative desire
Tools for explicit consent and communication that can transform any sexual experience
Freedom from inherited scripts about what sex "should" look like
Definitions, definitions…
Kink, like everything, is on a spectrum !
Some stops on that spectrum
Vanilla sex: standard activities without intentional role play or power dynamics
Capital-K Kink:intentional practice involving fantasy, negotiated parameters, and structured scenes
Kinky: something in between!
Common practices include: BDSM, impact play, bondage, sensation play, power exchange, role play, and more. The goal isn't the gear itself - it's the psychological, emotional, and physical experience that roles and dynamics unlock.
Consent
Consent in kink is robust, ongoing, and explicitly negotiated:
Introspection: What do I want? What's off the table?
Negotiation: Partners share desires and boundaries (red/yellow/green system)
Safe words: Tools that give participants agency to pause or stop
The scene: The negotiated play itself
Aftercare: Physical and emotional care during and after
This communication doesn't kill the vibe - for many, it's part of the eroticism and creates safety for deeper intimacy.
Finding community and learning safely
Vetting partners and spaces is essential!
Seek references from trusted friends already in the community.
Look for events with clear consent policies, codes of conduct, visible and trained staff, first aid plans, and transparent reporting processes.
Anyone rushing or dodging questions is a red flag.
Here's where to connect and learn:
Munches: Casual public meetups (often at restaurants or cafes) for socializing with others in the kink community
FetLife (fetlife.com): Social network for finding local events, classes, and parties
Classes and workshops: Many local dungeons and community spaces offer education on specific practices
Hotel takeovers: Weekend events with classes during the day and parties at night - great for learning and meeting people
Mentorship: Experienced community members often mentor newcomers to help them learn safely
Healthcare and kink
Many people involved in kink have legitimate healthcare questions but don't feel comfortable talking to providers. This might include questions about injury patterns, safer practices for specific activities, rashes or skin changes from gear, or general sexual health.
The challenge: most healthcare providers aren't trained to understand kink or distinguish consensual marks from non-consensual harm. This leads many people to, understandably, seek information from community members instead.
An approach:
Test the waters with open-ended questions about your sexual practices.
If a clinician responds with judgment or "just stop doing that," consider seeking care elsewhere if possible.
You deserve healthcare that supports what you actually want to do.
TRANSCRIPT
Dia: I think kink is, a space to be creative and to thrive in pleasure and to flourish in growth. Kink is a space that is not fully defined, and so you can use it as a field. Of possibility to grow or to plant seeds, of whatever you desire.
[QHP INTRO MUSIC STARTS]
Gaby: This is Queer Health Podcast and our queer health topic today is kink.
Richard: This episode is gonna hurt so good. [Whip noise]
Sam: Before we [clears throat] unleash more sound effects and kink related jokes, some introductions. I'm Sam. I use he/him pronouns, and I am a primary care doctor in New York.
Gaby: I am Gaby, she/her, same job title.
Richard: And I'm Richard and I use he and him pronouns, and I'm the director of LGBTQ Clinical Services at Bellevue Hospital.
Sam: You right now are listening to Queer Health Pod Season three, Episode 15 Kink. Alright: let’s talk about kink.
[QHP INTRO MUSIC ENDS] [WHIP NOISE]
Sam: Might be overusing sound effects...
Gaby: In case this is your first time hearing about kink, here's your quick and dirty definition. It's a term that encompasses sexual practices and desires that go beyond what's typically considered, quote, mainstream.
Sam: Gaby, less quick and more dirty. [Clears throat] It's an umbrella term that is often used to cover a wide range of behaviors, practices, and identities. It can involve specific types of acts that folks consider sexual, like spanking or pain; specific toys like dildos or flogs or needles or power dynamics like domination, submission. And these types of "play" can take almost any form you can imagine.
Gaby: People engage in kinks recreationally because they're exploring or because they like these sensations sometimes, or with some partners. And sometimes people engage in kink as part of their lifestyle or because it's something that they wanna have every time that they have sex.
Richard: So if this topic makes you feel both curious and maybe a bit squeamish if you're new to kink, then this episode is for you. More specifically: this episode is focused on people who wanna get into kink and people who may be unfamiliar, but are dabbling to embrace it more fully.
Sam: Before we dive too deep into our bin of sex toys, let's set up some definitions because not everything involving a blindfold automatically qualifies as full-on kink.
Richard: Like everything in queer health, kink exists on a spectrum.
Gaby: On one end, you have what people call vanilla sex, which is just standard sexual activities. They don't have a lot of intentional role play or power dynamics or agreed upon scripts. Think something like: we make out, we have sex, maybe somebody lights a Yankee candle if they're feeling wild.
Sam: I really never thought I'd hear our resident lesbian advocate for the Yankee Candle brand.
Gaby: Well, if I'm being honest, in my sex fantasy would be some homemade Palo Santo incense, but I am working on being more accessible.
Richard: Then there's kinky, which is like vanilla sex with a little topping on it. It's a slap here, a harness there a "call me sir." whispered in someone's ear, but it's still happening within a mostly unplanned go with the flow sexual encounter.
Sam: And then there's capital K Kink, which is a bigger practice that allows people the ability to lose themselves in fantasy, explore role plays that may not always be open to you, and to engage safely with others in sex called play that might not always be safe in the absence of pre-discussed parameters.
Gaby: Yeah, and that pre-discussion is actually super important because it happens in kink through a few really intentional steps. These include the steps of consent, which is, you know, the thing that we all know, it means " we're okay with this happening and we agree to it." And within that there's negotiation of what people want to happen. And then there's the sex itself, which again, Sam just called "play". And then there's the care that happens after the scene is wrapped up and after the sex is all done.
Richard: And for folks who love kink, it can become a lifestyle and even an important part of their identity.
Gaby: Speaking of that, if you're listening to this episode and thinking, "how is this queer? Anybody can wear a harness!" Don't worry, we're gonna cover that. But also, queer people do look better in harnesses.
Richard: And queer or not. The point in all our definitions is that kink isn't one thing. It's a whole universe of things, and it can look totally different from person to person.
Amy: Kink is, you know, an infinite amount of identities and activities that people participate in.
Sam: That to everyone who doesn't know her is the inimitable Amy.
Amy: I'm Amy. I am a 47-year-old Dom, pansexual woman. I use she and her pronouns and I am here to talk to you all about why kink is one of the best things that has happened in my life.
Sam: Okay. To be clear, her name is not Amy Dom, but I'm getting eye rolls and hearing crickets.
Gaby: Dad humor, not my kink it turns out.
Sam: Maybe – maybe dom humor. [laughter] Anyway, when Amy talks about a dom, that means a person taking the active or directing role in a scene. This is sometimes called topping, while a submissive or sub or bottom is a person receiving the sensation or following that direction.
Gaby: These are roles people choose for a scene. Kink often works like role play where people step into identities and dynamics that feel exciting, expressive, or erotic.
Richard: Which can be about dominance and submission as it is for Amy, but it can also be about caretaking, surrender control, creativity, or just wanting someone to call you a good boy in the exact right tone of voice. It's less who you are in life and more who you wanna be in this consensual moment that we're creating together.
Sam: In the intro, we heard from our first expert Dia Dynasty about how open kink can be. Dia as a practicing dom and professional in the kink community, who explains a little bit about her role in kink with others.
Dia: My name is Dia Dynasty. I am a Chinese American woman. I've been in this industry for about 15 years, based in New York City. And, my brand of, I guess you could say female domination is called holistic femdom. And I like to bring in, elements of spirituality as well as, mental, emotional and physical health into the work. As well as, an aspect of, childlike absurdity.
Sam: Can I register to vote in the state of holistic femdom?
Gaby: Absolutely.
Sam: Mhmm. All rise.
Richard: So to say it again, top or do is the active or directing role in a scene while bottom war sub is the person who's following that direction. Power can be a critical part of this play, as many people wanna step into or out of power that they might otherwise hold in their social identities and kink and role play can really allow for that.
Dia: If you're a cis hetero male and you want to, dress as a woman and feel what it's like to be a woman out in the world, like objectified and harassed and and seen as a certain way. I don't think there's any shame in that. I think that is a really beautiful way of shifting perspective and also of getting to be in a skin that you don't normally get to occupy.
Sam: There are some people who base their identity on their kink and they live in that role. Other people base their identity on this, but they only engage in that role during sex, or that's just their role during sex. And then some people just depends on what's going on and their sex life or who their partner is.
Richard: And since we're talking about roles, let's also debunk the idea that kink is about hurting people.
Sam: This is a very common misconception in part because of how people first learn about kink through, for example, Hollywood movies featuring Dakota Johnson.
Amy: 50 Shades of Gray was a horrible representation of BDSM. It was a fairly manipulative, abusive relationship when you look at it from consent standpoints and there was a few great things in there. I think it was good to expose people to kink as an idea, but not necessarily as a practice.
Gaby: I'm actually surprised that we made it more than five minutes in before 50 shades of Gray came under fire. Does that mean that we're doing a good job?
Richard: Yes.
Sam: No.
Richard: Ugh.
Sam: In kink sensation, including pain is only ever given to someone who asks for it, wants it, and enjoys it because it's erotic, intense, or emotionally satisfying.
Gaby: And just to say it very clearly, this means that these behaviors are not violence or abuse. They are consensual sensation play inside of a negotiated fantasy where the explicit collective goal is pleasure or connection or release, but is not harm.
Richard: So here's the big idea: kink isn't strange or fringe behavior. And just because it's so misunderstood, people often feel like squeamish or judgmental or confused about it, even though lots of us are doing kinky things without even realizing it.
Sam: On the scale of, "Hmm, sex just kind of happened" to, " We drafted a mission statement." Kink lives firmly on the intentional, structured, and collaborative end of that scale.
Gaby: That being said, I wanna be clear that we're not shaming vanilla sex here. Like, if that's your bag, go get it.
Richard: Our next expert, Dr. Dulcinea Pitagora, talks a little bit about this.
Dulcinea: I am Dr. Dulcinea Alex PItagora. I use they/them pronouns. I'm a New York City based psychotherapist and sex therapist. I also am, an adjunct professor at NYU so I do research related to, kink community, also queer, trans, folks as well as sex workers.
Richard: Dr. Pitagora reminds us here that there's joy in all the flavors, and you don't always have to pick the same one.
Dulcinea: A lot of times, people find the term vanilla sex offensive, like folks who engage in it, um, they might feel a certain way, like, oh, does that mean I'm boring? And it's just someone's preference, right? It's not necessarily better than something else. And also like vanilla is an amazing flavor you know, I enjoy like vanilla in my latte, for example. I'm also a huge fan of chocolate, so probably a little more chocolate, but whatever, that's my own personal preference.
Gaby: So I think to summarize this: some people want spontaneity and others want meticulously planned fantasy scenes with props.
Richard: And, spoiler alert, all of these kinds of sex can be hot and healthy and consensual, but only one requires a Google Doc.
Gaby: No, literally: Amy has one that lists all the things that you might be into and she saves them for each of her play partners, and she assigns this to people as homework before they hook up.
Sam: Queer women processing? Google Docs? Homework. Okay. Kink has a lot going for it.
Richard: Right?
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Sam: Like other topics we've discussed on QHP, kink is not exclusively queer. However, the overlap in the kink and queer communities is many Reddit threads full.
Richard: Kink is a queer health topic in part because as we have often said in this podcast, kink is something that is seen as fitting sort of outside what many people think of as normative sexual expression.
Gaby: If we're boiling this down to the simplest terms, we often think about vanilla or mainstream sex as being the standard thing that people do.
Sam: Like, struggle to pick a restaurant for dinner?
Richard: Or decide on a Yankee candle scent, Gaby?
Sam: And if either of those is your sexual king, please, please DM us or publish a book and make your millions.
Richard: Because kink pushes against those inherited sex scripts that people often have, they sometimes assume that everything outside of like heterosexual missionary sex is kink, which is absolutely not accurate.
Gaby: Queer sex is kind of by definition, a departure from hetero norms, but just because something isn't straight doesn't make it kink.
Richard: Like anal sex isn't a kink just because it's anal for a lot of queer people, that's just Tuesday.
Gaby: On Tuesdays, we do anal.
Sam: Kink is about the intentional structure, the roles, the power, the sensation, the fantasy, and the aesthetic layered around whatever the body parts are doing.
Richard: It is about bringing in tools and toys and gear and role play and power exchange, and costumes and scripts and production value.
Sam: And just to complicate the ice cream metaphor, so-called "vanilla sex" is full of power dynamics too. Who initiates, who decides pace, who leads or follows. Think about how choking has become more common in mainstream hookups. That's power and sensation showing up without people always naming or negotiating it. The difference with the vanilla sex isn't whether power exists. It's whether we talk about it and handle it with intention. This is something that our community reviewer Jennifer pointed out. Bringing that awareness into any sex tends to make it safer and hotter.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Gaby: So let's talk about the why. Why do people love kink?
Richard: People often actually wonder, “why do I like this? Is there something wrong with me?” And those questions don't come from the activity themselves. They come from the culture that people are brought up in.
Sam: Spoiler. There are tons of things wrong with you, but your interest in kink isn't one of them. Okay. The problem with kink and the culture is not the desire itself, it's the shame that we've built around it.
Dr. Pitagora: Usually there is some, internalized shame, um, that just kind of comes from living in this world. And, people are wondering: like, where did this come from? Why do I like this? Am I okay? And so these are a lot of really common questions early on in discovering it. Sometimes people have come in saying like, how do I stop doing this? And I'm like: conversion therapy is not a thing that works. Um, And it's harmful. And so I, I explain that to people who wanna do that.
Richard: Being turned on by an activity that involves something that culture thinks of as shameful, it can disagree with your self perception. And if this is the case, and you're doing something that doesn't agree with the way you see yourself, you may have difficulty incorporating the idea of kink into your sex life or your identity, even if it's something that you want.
Dr. Pitagora: The trick is to figure out where the shame came from. And it's not too hard. Usually it's like it's all around us, unfortunately. But maybe there's also something specific and to look at that and help people to understand that this is a perfectly fine way to express yourself and to have sexual preferences. Nothing wrong with it, as long as you're talking to consenting adults who are into the same things and, being intentional about it. It’s a conversation about how do you do it? How do you not repress it and understand that this is good and do it in a way that feels really good instead of a scary way, you know? Usually that involves finding community, other people to talk to.
Sam: In popular culture in media, kink is often displayed as the butt of a joke.
Richard: If you think back to the scene in Pulp Fiction, and if you haven't seen it, it's basically Bruce Willis and Ving Rhames end up in a situation where they are against their will in a dungeon with a bunch of people using fetish gear who are going to do things to them against their will, and it's meant to promote fear in them. But the scene depicts kinky sex is anything but consensual, which is not the spirit of kink that we're talking about here.
Sam: So in a very different type of portrayal in pop culture, it's also where thing that kink is often sort of short changed way to talk about female empowerment. Think about the song SNM by Rihanna or sort of spin your wheel and pick a Britney's song from the middle of her career, and you can see the way that kink is functioning very differently there, but also not really the kink that we're talking about.
Richard: Dia had this to say not about Rihanna, but we love it anyway.
Dia: Shame is such a powerful tool. And people use it to control and people use it to, limit themselves too. And so one of the things that, kink to me is, is about dispelling shame and kind of reveling in it.
Sam: One venue in which people often feel shame that Dia's talking about is when they are thinking about what their fantasies are and trying to explore those.
Gaby: And we know that sexual fantasies are really common, whether they're about power, care, surrender, control, feet. And people have them. Whether or not they ever act on them.
Sam: Having a fantasy doesn't automatically make someone kinky. Most people's erotic imagination wanders way beyond what they'd actually want to do with another human being.
Richard: But because fantasies involving power or intensity are so stigmatized, people sometimes worry that the fantasy itself means that there's something pathological about them.
Gaby: So just to say it clearly, kink is not pathology and fantasy is not pathology. Desire doesn't need to be morally evaluated like homework or a psych test.
Sam: So all of that aside, let's get back to Amy and hear a little bit from her about how she got into kink.
Amy: I got into a relationship with a person who was already in the kink community and started taking me to events. And, was also still participating as a submissive or a bottom. And after some time, I thought, you know, I just don't really like it and I think maybe I'm just not kinky. And I was talking to a friend of mine who's, a well-known dom in my area. She's been in the community for about 35 years. And she said, " Amy, I think you really need to try topping." And I was like, I just don’t like to hurt people. I don't think I wanna do that. and she was like “Will you just try for me?" And I was like, "OK, I will try for you." And that's really kind of when the entire world of this opened up to me in a way that I was not expecting. I'm a very empathetic person. I want to give people pleasure and good things and happiness and all of that. And, it took me a while to come to the realization that the people that you're playing with. Do want these things, right? Like they do want you to hurt them. They do want you to demean them. They do want that stuff because that is what gets them off. And I didn't realize that that was gonna get me off until I actually tried it.
Richard: For Amy, her journey into kink included figuring out what roles and power dynamics she wanted to inhabit. And even though the first one didn't fit, she finally found the one that did.
Sam: Part of Amy's journey was also unpacking the stigma around what it meant to engage in kink and what it meant to top, and the behaviors that came with that.
Richard: Which really highlights how exploration can be a really important thing in kink exploration of what we like.
Sam: Not just candle scents. which actually brings us to the questions everyone wants to ask, but doesn't wanna Google on their work. Laptop. Chat GPT: do I wanna be peed on during sex? And is that Yankee candle cinnamon smell too much for my cat. Also. Is it okay if my cat watches?
Gaby: How do I pick a harness based on my horoscope?
Sam: ChatGPT, How long from eating asparagus? Ugh. Well, ugh. Nevermind.
Richard: I hate you both, but yes. Let's get specific here. So what types of kinks are there? Shockingly, there's an acronym.
Dulcinea: So we're talking about BDSM and kink, and a lot of times people use those terms interchangeably. BDSM obviously stands for things, anddon't know how important it is to know, to memorize all, you know, all of the acronyms bondage bondage, domination, submission, sadism, masochism. Some of the letters overlap and also people use different words for those things, which is why I'm I'm not too concerned about terminology, as long as everybody talking to each other is clear on what they mean.
Sam: So let's make an important distinction because a lot of folks think kink is just about the stuff. Whips, harnesses, leather, slings, paddles, rolls, goggles.
Gaby: These are the tools of kink, the props, the equipment. They're like the art supplies.
Sam: [Cough] Lesbian art teacher
Gaby: And that is my kink.
Richard: to be a lesbian art teacher or to be with a lesbian art teacher.
Sam: play of it
Gaby: I won't, I plead the fifth.
Richard: These tools can include some commonly understood fetishes, so this could include like dildos or fisting or sounding, which is inserting metal rods into the urethra for pleasure.
Gaby: Or bondage with rope sometimes called Shibari or handcuffs. Or blindfolds.
Sam: The eroticizing of intense sensations, including but not limited to pain, might include flogs, paddles or even needles.
Richard: It can also include erotic activities that induce altered states of consciousness, like choking or breath play, for some more extreme players, autoerotic asphyxiation.
Gaby: And some people like specific acts with their role play like water sports or urine play or fisting.
Sam: So, as I put aside my asparagus, I wanna make the point that it's worth knowing that everyone who's into kink probably has a different menu of things that work for them. Just like for folks who keep things vanilla, some things work for some people and not everyone else, like ear nibbling or nipple play or biting.
Richard: But the point of kink isn't just to own expensive gear or recreate a medieval torture chamber in your studio apartment,
Sam: Because we live in New York and we don't have space for that.
Richard: right? The goal of kink is the experience, the emotional, psychological, relational, and yes, deeply physical release that happens when people step into power, surrender, vulnerability or play.
Amy: I think it's just an intense connection with people. And when you are seening with somebody in a way where you're making this great eye contact, if they're not wearing a blindfold or a hood and you are like doing these things to this person and getting reactions from them... it is just such an intense connection with that person that if nobody has an orgasm, it's still this wonderful experience for people.
Richard: Kink might be eroticizing power dynamics as with dominance and submission, and it can also include things like puppy play or even age play or cuckolding.
Gaby: It can also include role plays, which as one of three former theater kids on this podcast, I totally get. This can include things like dramatizing military or medical scenes, though not with doctors, because that's not sexy to me wearing leather or coming up with creative ways to pay the bill at a restaurant for your partner.
Richard: Kink allows there to be as deep an investment into these roles as someone might wish to delve.
Sam: So yes, kink uses toys, roles and scripts, but the actual aim is the psychological and the embodied or felt experience that those roles unlock, not just the equipment.
Gaby: The props are the paintbrushes.
Richard: and kink is the masterpiece.
Sam: And Gaby's role is the lesbian art teacher. Nevermind, nevermind. Dr. Pitagora tells us how this art is made.
Dulcinea: There's a scene which can be a time bounded, we're going to do these activities together and it's gonna take place at this time for this long. And sometimes it's not like, oh, it's gonna be an hour and 25 minutes. It's just like, this is what we're doing. It's been negotiated. It's what we wanna do together. And it's like a scene. And a lot of times people talk about play and how they have play partners. And playing together, which is an interesting term if you think about it. Like, it can be very intense, it can involve sex or not, or it can involve impact, play, pain or none of that.
Sam: And if you just got uncomfortable hearing about that, it's probably because in our culture, talking about sex is awkward and talking about kinky sex can be even more awkward.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Sam: So now that we've unpacked a little bit of the "why" of kink, let's get into the how.
Gaby: Which, in kink, starts with consent.
Richard: Here is Dia with a great definition.
Dia: Consent is an agreement of both desire and boundary. And so it's a conversation between the two people who will be, engaging with each other for that time and space. I feel like a lot of people misunderstand and stigmatize kink or BDSM because they don't see the step of consent happening and what consent means within the realm of BDSM and kink it is, an ongoing agreement for a time and space, of what these people who are engaged will do together.
Richard: Consent is the process of coming to agreement about what actions, behaviors, and words are acceptable to all involved in a scene beforehand. So no one is forced to do anything they don't wanna engage in. It's meant to help prevent trauma or re-traumatizing or just to ensure that everyone involved has a good time, not a bad time.
Gaby: And maybe a long time. Sorry. I'll shut up now.
Richard: What the process looks like concretely is: first up, some introspection. You have to sit down and answer the question, what fantasy scenarios or behaviors do I actually want? And similarly asking yourself: is there anything definitively off the table?
Sam: then you bring that to your play partners who have done the same thing hopefully, and you negotiate and figure out where the space of overlap is.
Richard: And you can use like a red, yellow, or green model, right? Here are the things that are absolutely off the table and those are red. Here are the things that I would absolutely love to happen and those are green and things that I may wanna explore, but I'm not sure how they'll land might end up in yellow.
Gaby: And we talked about this earlier, but this is really where it's important to mention that Amy shared that she has a Google document that she uses that has a list of activities on it, and then degrees to which like someone can designate if they like or don't like them. and she sends this out to people that she plays with so that they can get back to her with what they like and she can keep it on file for the next time that they play, which like, be still my nerdy heart.
Sam: It feels like ordering get to write down how many you want, you know, and you kind of keep the menu.
Gaby: Mm-hmm. Or dim Sum. Yeah. It's, it's all the best things.
Richard: Another one of the core tools for creating a consensual dynamic is the safe word, which I feel like is the kink concept that everyone kind of knows about.
Dia: Safe words are a big part of the consent negotiation. What does a safe word do when you activate it? A safe word is like a, a rip cord that opens. A trapped door that you can easily escape from in a situation, that you want to make, stop, and so what I find that is people who have experienced violations of their body in the form of trauma have never had that control or agency. And so within the container space of a kink session, I want to make sure they have that agency
Gaby: People think that talking kills the vibe, but to me, Dia's's quote about safe words is an example of how for a lot of kinky people, the negotiation is part of the eroticism. Because we're naming things we want, we're also figuring out what our limits are, and also how to communicate those limits to other people.
Richard: So, in other words, robust consent doesn't just protect people. It opens the door to deeper emotional and physical intimacy. Consent creates a container where people can focus on the intense sensations rather than having half their brains worrying about their own safety. And that's why pain or humiliation, which looks alarming from the outside, can actually produce intimacy, connection and trust.
Sam: People who choose to play with it can become a form of embodied communication, meaning I trust you to push me and I want you to hold me, and I want to feel this with you.
Richard: It is really worth noting that consent for kink often happens very differently than it does for vanilla hookups, right? We hear all the time that people who are on apps who like arrange a meetup who are like, "yeah, I wanna get together. Let's hook up," and then never really clarify what they're looking for and the two people involved, or more people involved have a much different idea of what's gonna happen and no one gets what they want because we're not accustomed to really saying when we're talking about a hookup, like, "I really like this and I really don't like this." Right. That's not a way that we're used to talking about the vanilla sex that we want.
Sam: Go off girl.
Richard: Yeah
Gaby: Which is why consenting kink really isn't like the boring legal entity that it evokes. It is a very sexy and collaborative process. It's gonna let you map out the fantasy experience that you and your partners actually want. And for those of you who are exploring the kink of voyeurism, just by listening to this episode. This is how kink can teach vanilla people a thing or two. If everybody were to set expectations, use clear communication and come to agreements about what's in bounds and out bounds for the sex they were gonna have. Everybody would be having better sex.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Sam: We've talked about the tools of kink, we've talked about the role and the how of doing kink, but now we're actually gonna talk about what's happening between two people when kink is going on.
Richard: By which we mean negotiation, consent limits and the structure of a scene and what it means to intentionally build an erotic experience rather than just to stumble on whatever happens.
Sam: So aside from consent, how does this all work?
Gaby: So first you have to find people that you can actually play with.
Richard: Here's Amy talking about just this thing.
Amy: there are a lot of places, A lot of the local Dungeons will do some sort of classes. And so that's a good way to kind of learn how to do it. And if you don't have access to something like classes, quite often there are people who have been in the scene for a while who are willing to like, mentor, you know? So if you're like, I'm really interested in being a dom or something and I wanna learn how to do these things, then my experience in the community has been that people are very open to helping you learn how to do those things. People want you to be doing these things safely. They want you to be doing them in a way that is consensual and everybody is having negotiations ahead of time and all of that. They want you to learn how to do these things. They don't want you, doing them at home behind closed doors with no experience and possibly injuring yourself or somebody else. As far as BDSM and kink resources or how to find things like parties and classes, FetLife is really the main, website that folks use. So it's FetLife, F-E-T-L-I-F e.com. It's a not safe for work website. People post photos of themselves participating in all sorts of things. But there is an events section to that where people post events. So you can actually go and look for events in your area and find “Oh, they're teaching a class on whipping, and I really wanna go to that.” There's also hotel takeovers fora weekend in certain places where you can go and it's just usually those hotel takeovers are classes all day and then parties all night. And so that's a really great way to both get, experience learning things as well as getting to do them and meeting people in the community.
Sam: One of the vetting tip sheet ideas that our community reviewer provided was to look at potential partners and folks through trusted friends who seem to be connected to others who are already in the kink community or go to in-person kink events that are sometimes called munches classes or dungeons. References from community members can be very helpful, and anyone who's rushing or dodging a question is probably a red flag. If you have that information, then our community reviewer recommends evaluating the event itself. Is there a strong community standard, including posted consent policies and codes of conduct? Are there clearly identified and trained folks who are staff, first aid plans that people can read, and is there a transparent reporting process or escalation for those concerns? If those pieces aren't visible, then maybe consider skipping and find a different space that may take safety and accountability more seriously.
Richard: Once you find a partner or partners, then you have to agree on what's on the table and what's not. So for example, do you have a dom and a dom or do you have a sub and a sub? Does one person like physical impact play and the other person likes verbal humiliation? Is there a middle ground that they both can agree on? Also, some folks like to include penetration and orgasm in their kink, and some folks don't.
Sam: And kink can be more inclusive of different body types, specifically folks whose innervation in their body may be different, whether that's a spinal cord injury or just how their body developed. So it can get folks to achieve orgasm in other ways. And there's a real pleasure from kink play and different ways than those bodies may otherwise experience. It can be a much more inclusive form of sex.
Richard: During play, folks sometimes describe the pleasure as being different or better than simple orgasm. Dia describes something she calls subspace.
Dia: Subspace is this, altered state that happens and it's such a delicious place because there are no thoughts and you're just floating and it’s a result of a lot of body chemicals and brain chemicals just all releasing and it's this intoxicating cocktail of like natural high. I have experienced top space before, and it's not dissimilar from Subspace, but I felt like my head was not attached to my body and I was just like. Floating around and everything was great and felt warm and fuzzy. And that is a really rich space to, to get to. And a lot of people seek that out because it is such a intoxicating cocktail of body chemicals. I think for me it's important to know the difference between subspace, and dissociation. For people who, who have been in dissociative states, it's not necessarily a good place to go because these sessions, of play and sensation are about feeling everything and being as present as possible. And I wouldn't want somebody to check out.
Gaby: So finally, once you've moved through the actual play, plus or minus subspace, there is what comes afterwards, which is called aftercare, and it really means planning for what the people involved in the scene might need, either physically or mentally. And it actually includes both immediately after the scene and then sometime, sometime later.
Amy: aftercare is people coming back together in more of a way where they're gonna be like checking in with each other, making sure each other's okay. Quite often it might involve, cuddling or sitting next to each other. I've had some submissives who when I ask them about aftercare, they just wanna sit at my feet after a scene and meet a stroke their hair afterwards, you know? Because sometimes when you're doing scenes, you're hitting them or you're demeaning them and calling them names. Or you are, stabbing them with needles you're doing things to them that, from the outside people looking into that like, you don't do those to people you care about, right? And so that aftercare is important because it brings people back to a space, in their, their brain and in their connection with that person where they're showing like, that was the scene. That is how we acted when we were playing, performing, whatever you wanna call it. And now we're gonna reconnect on a way so that you know that I care about you. Then aftercare, for me at least, extends beyond, right after a scene I check in with people usually the next day too. Hey, how are you feeling about the scene yesterday? How are you feeling today? If it was an impact scene and they have bruises, how are you feeling physically? Is everything okay? How are you feeling emotionally? Do you feel differently about the scene today than you did yesterday? Right? Because sometimes people think about it later and go, oh, I didn't actually really like that thing that you did. And I always want feedback, if I do something that somebody doesn't enjoy or didn't enjoy, I wanna know that so that I don't do that. If we play again.
Gaby: I just wanna normalize, like, this is a thing that is often, I think left out of the planning stage for some people, but is really important because doesn't everybody need a little aftercare after an intense experience?
Sam: Amy also gave us some insight into something she calls "drop."
Amy: An after play issue is what the scene likes to call drop, which is when you're participating in BDSM, especially if you're doing like. a weekend thing or a long party you've got all these hormones happening in your body. And then you go back to like the real world and you don't have all of that constant stimulation happening and people can get really depressed and we call that drop. So a lot of people will get that after either a party or are going to a hotel takeover or a weekend intensive thing. You get back home and you feel so sad and depressed because you're not getting that constant feed of that excitement and novelty and hormones and the energy that you're getting from other people around you. And it can feel horrible to go back to. I have to do my laundry and dishes and go to work today and pick up my kid from school. This fucking sucks. And so if people don't recognize that or don't know about it, that can be really hard to be like, what's wrong with me? Why do I feel so horrible and sad today?
Richard: So in this section we talked about setting the scene practically, including agreements, consent and safe words, and then aftercare. Next up, healthcare.
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Richard: So as we start to talk about healthcare, it's important to note that a lot of kink doesn't actually center around genitals being in contact with each other or the exchange of fluids like semen or vaginal fluids. And so for some people that's historically been a safer way of having sex, especially in the context of reducing the risk of HIV, particularly early in the epidemic.
Gaby: That being said, there are still risks to consider, and those can include things like injuries, infections, blood exposure, or skin breakdown.
Sam: And also though a lot of people who engage in kink have legitimate physical healthcare questions, they may not feel comfortable talking to their healthcare provider.
Gaby: Which I, I wish it were different, but to me isn't surprising because most healthcare professionals aren't trained to understand kink or assess injuries related to kink.
Richard: Not just about injuries, but also about any old medical question that may arise from kink. things, like: how to fist someone safely or a more basic like, "Hey, did my leather harness give me a rash?" Or, I read this on Reddit about X, y, Z. Can we talk about that?
Sam: I do genuinely and with no sarcasm love to ask patients what they read on Reddit, and then discuss it.
Richard: And the truth is, when it happens, when people bring research into the room and ask questions about it, it does so much good. Listen to Dr. Pitagora on this.
Dulcinea: wouldn't it be great if you could go to your doctor and your doctor knew “oh, those are the good bruises. These are not good bruises. Where did these ones come from?” And it's like a conversation. And it's fine. The doctor's like, oh yeah, I, I know we talked about that one before that was from the scene, You really enjoyed yourself. Great, but I'm worried about this one.
Richard: To some degree. What Dr. Pitagora is getting at is that it helps when healthcare providers understand what people are actually doing instead of offering blanket. Don't do that advice. And as a clinician aside to the folks who are listening, it really is on us to learn the basics of kink practices and injury patterns so that patients don't have to brace themselves for stigma when they show up with consensual marks or bruises or skin changes. If we can identify negotiated impact bruises and ask open-ended non-judgmental questions, we reduce harm and increase trust. Patients really shouldn't have to hide their sex lives to get decent care. Investing in this knowledge as part of competent trauma-informed practice.
Sam: So step one might be sussing out what your providers know, not just medically, but their attitude towards kink. Are they gonna be affirming of it or are they gonna make you feel.
Gaby: That doesn't mean just to say that you have to spill your entire kink resume on the first visit. You can take baby steps by just seeing how somebody responds to open-ended questions about your sexual practices?
Richard: And if a provider reacts with judgment moralizing, or "you should just stop doing that," then it's reasonable to seek care elsewhere if you can, especially for ongoing sexual health support.
Sam: So we wanna say that in a slightly different way. Looking for kink friendly providers, or at least testing the waters with someone who seems like they might be a kink affirming provider is really an important first step if you're thinking about bringing your kink identity into the clinical space. Because there are very real concerns that our community reviewer highlighted that medical staff won't interpret things like consensual bruises, marks, or injuries in the right way. That those providers may assume harm or abuse where there isn't any, or respond in ways that feel punitive or scary. So to be clear, there are people in healthcare working to do this better, including us, but it's not a guarantee that the person in front of you will be kink affirming in a clinical space, and that's a big reason why so many kink involved folks end up getting information and support from the kink community instead of from healthcare providers.
Amy: So I think one of the things that has really attracted me to kink is, the community and meeting people who I feel are my people, right? So I, I like to talk about sex, I like to talk about relationships and communication and all of those things. And so that is a community where. That's very encouraged. Talking about sex, talking about relationships, talking about communication, talking about, all of that is super encouraged. And so the people who are drawn to that are often what I consider my people. I like to go to events where the people there feel like my people.
Richard: Truthfully, a lot of times community members are more knowledgeable about practical safety, like how to do impact play, piercing, choking, or fisting in ways that lower risk than a random clinician who's never heard of any of these things.
Sam: And so online advice can be a mixed bag. it's very well sourced from experienced community members and very thoughtful. Other online forums are chaotic evil, so it's important to remember that advice can vary wildly.
Richard: The same way it can with healthcare providers, honestly. Ultimately, I guess what we're recommending is it can be helpful to balance both providers who are respectful of you and the sex you engage in, and also the community that knows the terrain.
Sam: And if you're unsure where to start, we will ironically point you back to the internet where there are guidelines for clinicians at kink oriented websites, and you can share those with your provider if they're curious and open to learning.
Gaby: People deserve healthcare that supports what they actually want to do, not what somebody thinks they should be doing.
Sam: So to sum up what we've talked about in this section, we mentioned the stigma or the fear from healthcare providers and how that may stop folks from discussing the kinks that they engage in and some ways to approach seeking health information with a healthcare provider, whether or not they are fully informed about that specific kink practice. And we wanna point out that it hopefully is possible to find some healthcare providers that will be affirming and thoughtful wherever you live.
Gaby: We also talked about how a lot of people from the kink community will seek out safety information from other folks who are more experienced in the kink community.
Richard: As a final note, one of the things that we hope you got from this discussion was that kink can be safe and healthy and joyful for all of those that are interested in it, and that there are lots of lessons to be learned for all of us. To move away from shame in our sexuality and embrace the full scope of it so that we can have sex that includes full and explicit consent, and then includes psychological and physical safety for all of our partners, No matter what kind of sex you're engaging in.
Gaby: And with that, we will let Amy close us out.
Amy: Making kind of kink part of my identity is both just on a personal level. It has brought me to a lot of people who are really important in my life now and who I adore. And it's also just expresses. My desire to be an open and accepting person and the kind of people I think who might see something like a pin on meand think that's a bad thing, are not the people that I really wanna hang out with or be in my life anyway.
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Sam: QHP is a power sharing project that puts community stories in conversation with healthcare expertise to expand autonomy for sexual and gender minorities.
Richard: Thank you to our community voice, Amy, and as always, thank you to our healthcare experts, Dr. Pitagora and Dia Dynasty.
Sam: We would also like to thank our community reviewer, Jennifer Schwartz.
Gaby: For more information on this episode's topic, check out our website, www.queerhealthpod.com.
Richard: Help others find this information by leaving a review and subscribing on Spotify or Apple.
Gaby: We are on social media. Our handle is @QueerHealthPod. Reach out to us!
Sam: Thank you to Lonnie Ginsburg, who composed our theme music and to the Josiah Macy Jr Foundation who supported some of the technology we used to produce this episode.
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Richard: Opinions in this podcast are our own and do not represent the opinions of any of our affiliated institutions. And even though we're doctors, please don't use this podcast as medical advice and instead, consult with your own healthcare provider. e