#30: Asexuality (Part 2)
COMMUNITY VOICE: Kj Swanson, PhD | HEALTHCARE EXPERTS: Cody Daigle-Orians, Bauer LCSW | COMMUNITY REVIEWER: Olivia Pinney
SHOW NOTES
A caveat
This episode is part 2 of our series on asexuality. If you haven’t listened to part 1, we recommend starting there!
Diving in anyway? Below is some vocab to get you up to speed:
Asexual (ace): describes folks who don’t experience sexual attraction
Aromantic (aro): describes folks who don’t experience romantic attraction
Allosexual: folks who do experience sexual attraction (the “default” assumption in society)
Allonormativity: the idea that sexual attraction and sexual relationships are universal, natural, and expected — similar to how heteronormativity centers heterosexualit
Healthcare for A-Spectrum people
The bad
Ace and aro patients often navigate healthcare spaces that assume everyone experiences sexual and romantic attraction — a phenomenon known as allonormativity.
These assumptions can lead to pathologizing care, where lack of sexual desire is treated as a symptom, or ace/aro identity is mistakenly linked to trauma (more on that below!)
What this leads to:
Many ace/aro patients face difficult decisions about disclosure.
Fear of being doubted, invalidated, or subjected to unnecessary tests can lead to incomplete care or even avoidance of healthcare.
Affirming care…
Starts with curiosity and open-ended questions to get to know a patient holistically
Avoids assumptions, letting patients define what intimacy and connection mean for them.
How to find affirming care
Ask providers about their experience with ace/aro patients
Not your bag? No worries. Bauer’s made a list of affirming professionals!
AceRecommended.org
AroRecommended.org
Trauma and Asexuality
A common misconception in healthcare: asexuality or aromanticism is caused by trauma.
This assumption can be harmful, implying that ace/aro identities are consequences of trauma that need to be “fixed.”
Not all feelings of low sexual attraction are trauma-related; many ace/aro people have never experienced trauma connected to their orientation.
Notably, ace/aro individuals may have trauma and some may connect their trauma to their a-spectrum-ness. But this does not invalidate that identity.
Takeaway for care: Avoid pathologizing patients. Recognize that a person’s orientation is valid regardless of past experiences, and focus on supporting them in living authentically.
Intim-Ace-y
Asexuality doesn’t automatically mean avoiding physical intimacy
Physical closeness can look like many things: cuddling, kissing, massage, or other forms of touch that don’t need to be sexual.
Some ace people do choose to have sex, and that choice can be for many reasons:
To share closeness with a partner
To satisfy curiosity
To enjoy certain kinds of physical touch or sensation
To make sex one aspect of a broader relationship
Bottom line: sex and physical intimacy is an option, not an expectation.
Checking in about whether intimacy feels right is a really important first step
Pitfalls come up when sex is approached for the wrong reasons, like:
Feeling obligated to meet a partner’s needs
Hoping sex will change or “fix” one’s orientation
Believing sex is required for a relationship to be real, or to secure a partner
Consent and choice aren’t just about the act itself — they’re about whether it aligns with your needs and boundaries.
If exploration is on the table, then some best practices fro our experts:
Turn to resources like Scarlet Teen’s Yes/No/Maybe and BDSM consent lists to help spell out a “menu” of experiences
Thinking about which parts of the body are OK to engage, and which may be off limits (for example: hands may be OK!)
Open conversation with partners is central
Name what feels good, what feels neutral, and what feels off-limits
And remember - just because you do something once doesn’t mean you have to do it again. Boundaries are dynamic and can be re-established at any point!
TRANSCRIPT
Kj: I recently started a medication that requires you to not get pregnant. And fortunately, my my doctor. knew I was asexual, which doesn't mean necessarily that you don't have sex, but like she understood like there's no accidental sex in my life. I see it coming months away. So she hadn't believed me, she would have put me on birth control still I had to buy my first pregnancy tests. And it's just multiple levels of complex and ridiculous and ironic. That I'm a perimenopausal asexual, like buying pregnancy tests. My friend was like, definitely buy the cheapest one possible, because you don't need accuracy (laughter).
[QHP THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Gaby: Welcome to Queer Health Pod, a podcast by queer people for queer people. I'm Gaby, I use she/her pronouns, and I'm a primary care doctor in New York City.
Sam: I am Sam. I use he/him pronouns, and same job title.
Richard: And I'm Richard. I use he/him pronouns, and I have the same job title and I've been an LGBTQ plus healthcare provider for over 20 years.
Gaby: And you're listening to Queer Health Pod, season three, asexuality – part two.
[QHP THEME MUSIC ENDS]
Gaby: This episode is the second part of a two-episode series. In Asexuality part one, we unpacked what asexuality and aromanticism are. We cleared misconceptions about asexual and aromantic identities, and we talked about what it can look like and feel like to come into an ace or aro identity.
Sam: If you haven't listened yet, we definitely recommend checking that episode out. First, not necessary, but if some of this vocab or content matter is new, we think that part one makes this part a little smoother sailing.
Richard: And that's because today, we're building on that conversation. We're shifting from definitions to lived experiences, from what is asexuality and aromanticism to how do ace and aro people move through the world.
Sam: We're joined again by Cody Daigle-Orians, whose pronouns are they/them. Cody is an ace educator, advocate, and writer. Cody shared a perspective that really frames what today's episode's conversation is about.
Cody: I think we are still in a place where conversations around asexuality within our community, not just without our community, are really just focused on what asexuality is and affirming that it is a valid way of experiencing the world. And I am hopeful that we are at a place where now we can have deeper conversations about what liv ing those true experiences then mean in the world? How are we going to support ace and aro people living practically in the world? How are we going to address health disparities that exist for ace and aro people? There is research that exists that shows that ace and aro folks have really complicated experiences with healthcare interactions because of bias, or because of just like fear of how their practitioner will respond. How do we then make those situations safer for ace folks? We are reaching a place of... enough people are recognizing who we are and are having conversations like this where we know it's valid, we know it exists. So, what's next? How do we create? Safe and affirming space for people to live ace and aro lives healthily and happily?
Gaby: So that's pretty much where we're going today. What comes after the definitions and what it means to support ace and aro, people living in their identities.
Sam: And while we do recommend episode one, which clearly by this point in the episode you realize we're fully obsessed with, for a full exploration of the vocabulary, here are some of the core terms.
Gaby: Asexuality, or ace is a term that describes people who don't feel sexual attraction. Aromanticism, or aro, refers to folks who don't feel romantic attraction. And you might hear these both combined as ace/aro or a-spectrum. Both of these are umbrella terms that are kind of meant to leave room for the ways that asexual and aromantic identities can express themselves variably. Unsurprisingly, ace and aro identities, like many queer identities, aren't monoliths. The last term to mention is allosexual, which is a word that's used to describe people who do experience sexual attraction. And it's basically the counterpart to asexuality in the same way that cisgender is a counterpart to transgender. So being allosexual doesn't mean someone is always interested in sex or attracted to everyone, but it does mean that they experience sexual attraction in a way that's considered "conventional", "typical" or "expected".
Richard: And now that you're up to date, a little agenda setting. Today's episode will start ace/aro experiences in healthcare. Then we'll dig into what it feels like to access medical care as an ace or aro person, the kinds of assumptions that come up and what affirming care can look like.
Sam: Then we'll talk about navigating intimacy and dating as an ace or aro person, what it looks like to form relationships when you don't experience sexual or romantic attraction the way most of the world expects you to.
Richard: And we'll close by exploring how ace and aro people build community and structure meaningful, joyful lives in a world that often centers romance and sex as default.
Gaby: Let's get into it.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Gaby: So let's start with ace and aro experiences in the healthcare system.
Sam: Oh, classic doctor, starting with, uh, healthcare.
Gaby: Okay. Well, yes, true, but I think I am gravitating towards this because healthcare is a space that's, it's just not talked about for this community. For a-spectrum people, and again, that's asexual and aromantic people, the doctor's office is really often a place where people are just not really seen at all for their identities.
Sam: Say more about that.
Gaby: Well, I'm just gonna start by saying like, obviously we're all on board with the fact that all people, including ace and aro folks need healthcare. I mean, I'm a primary care doctor, so my brand is kind of like everyone is invited to the party to come talk about screening, testing, therapy refills referrals.
Sam: Referral and refill-sexual? Is that what you're giving right now?
Gaby: Got a little carried away there. Whew.
Richard: What she means to say: even though ace and aro people need healthcare, they receive it in a space where there are lots of assumptions about what normal sexual relationships look like.
Gaby: Exactly. The word for this is allonormativity, which describes the way that society places sexual desire at the center of everything. It's kind of like heteronormativity, but for asexual people. And this allonormativity causes a-spectrum people often to feel marginalized or excluded in healthcare spaces.
Sam: We talk about these kind of norms a lot in our first episode, so again, we're still obsessed, but check that out. If you want to understand more of what we're talking about with Allo Normativity.
Richard: Exactly. Bringing this back to our original point about clinic, the healthcare system like much of society assumes that everyone experiences and wants sex and romance in the same way.
Sam: So let's anticipate the skeptical viewpoint here and ask the following question. If someone isn't having sex, can't they just say so to their doctors? Isn't talking about sex the awkward thing?
Gaby: You're right. And also we as doctors are so programmed to have assumptions about what "normal" attraction looks like. And those assumptions are really baked into the medical encounter and medical education. So that means that when someone comes into clinic and says, you know, "No, I don't have sex because I don't experience or want to experience sexual attraction", that can lead to friction. And so here's Bauer, she/her pronouns, an ace therapist, data scientist, and community organizer who was also in part one of this episode series talking about just this.
Bauer: The most common medical pain points that I know about are being believed and having, being ace or aro seen as a symptom that needs to be fixed or proof that there is something wrong with you.
Gaby: When Bauer says –
Bauer: …a symptom that needs to be fixed…
Gaby: – she's referring to this common bias that's frequently encountered by ace/aro folks, which is that their identity is, is just a symptom of some trauma and therefore not an authentic way of being. And if you just listened to what I said and did a double take, here's Cody expanding on this.
Cody: I think because most people are unfamiliar with asexuality, they haven't encountered it, and it's something that they don't really understand. There is this tendency to try to fit asexuality into a construct of the world that they understand. So just accepting asexuality's existence is hard, we have to find some reason for it. Trauma certainly comes up. That is, that's something that we understand in the world that's asexual. Sometimes people who do experience trauma then have a complicated relationship to sex. And so they're like, "Oh, well, that looks like that. So that must be the same thing." And that's not necessarily the case. Asexuality isn't caused by anything. It is one of the ways in which one can experience sexual attraction.
Richard: As Kj, our community voice for this series points out. There's also the assumption that if something is linked to trauma, it must be bad.
Kj: I guess the example I give was in part of my queer awakening slash crisis, it was realizing that all my life, I had never actually believed that anyone could find me sexually attractive. And it would sit in my head of like, how can I have such a dearth of self esteem in this area when I have such good self esteem in every aspect of my life? Like where's the hidden trauma that wounded me here that didn't screw up all the other things connected to it? I thought that, for decades.
Gaby: And it is important to name that trauma and identity can intersect without invalidating somebody's asexuality. But in Kj's case, that feeling of "no one could ever be attracted to me" wasn't about trauma or self-esteem. It actually came from never having felt sexual attraction herself. And so she wasn't able to imagine it directed towards her and so when she figured that out, it brought a lot of clarity for her.
Kj: There's also an ableism to saying like, that it would be bad if it was caused by trauma, right? Maybe trauma's part of what shaped you, and how can you parse, " this is my orientation," and then "this is my upbringing," and "this is my experience, this is my identity."
Cody: I think it's also important to say that there is an entire community of people in the ace community who connect their asexuality to their experience of trauma. And so there's this community of folks who recognize that is the process of how I got to where I am living authentically. That doesn't diminish the truth of their asexuality. I don't think like how one gets to asexuality matters so much. What matters is the reality of what you were living and experiencing and feeling. and it isn't something that we need to fix or correct or adjust. That's just where a person is living authentically and experiencing authentically.
Richard: So ultimately, how someone arrives at their identity is often very important to them. But whatever the journey or the reasons, it doesn't change the legitimacy of the identity itself. It matters, but it doesn't.
Gaby: What does matter is that the narrative around trauma, that trauma is the undeniable root of asexuality can be really harmful in healthcare settings. And what that looks like is that a spectrum, people walk into a healthcare space and often are immediately categorized as a problem to be fixed.
Kj: Definitely tons of documentation around the pathologizing or problematizing of lack of sexual interest as something that needs to be cured and medicated and intervened with against the patient's wishes.
Gaby: I wanna be clear that this pathologizing, that Kj describes, it has its origins in medicine. In the DSM, which is this landmark manual that we use for mental health diagnoses, there's a whole section on quote, sexual disorders. And by the way, the DSM is famously the same manual where homosexuality was once listed. And it has since been removed, which, like, yay. But in 2025, lack of sexual desire or arousal is still in the DSM. And all of this is to say that this is something that clinicians are literally taught to look for and fix. And of course, if it's distressing to the patient, like if someone used to find sex fulfilling and now they don't, and they're worried about why that's changed, then yes, absolutely. Let's explore that together.
Richard: But the sticking point here is that a lack of sexual desire can then be weaponized against someone in opposition to their own way of understanding themselves. Like Kj says.
Sam: And the harm isn't just labeling asexuality as an illness in medical spaces or making someone feel. Sick or other because of that label. When clinicians don't recognize asexuality as a valid part of identity, it can lead to care that feels irrelevant or even invasive.
Richard: Especially when it comes to sexual health conversations during a visit.
Bauer: Just because somebody's on the ace spectrum doesn't mean that they don't need sex education. Also doesn't mean that they don't need care and consideration around sexual violence.
Sam: Many ace folks are desexified to the extent that we don't even think to talk about non-consensual sex like sexual violence, let alone consider the fact that many ace folks may have sex for a number of reasons besides intrinsic desire. Being ace doesn't mean you'll never need to talk about sex or get healthcare related to it.
Gaby: And also the opposite can be true.
Bauer: There are less aces having sex on purpose than there are in the general population, which makes a lot of sense. And, there are people who are legitimately not having sex and therefore do not need a variety of healthcare procedures, tests, etc.
Richard: Which to be clear is exactly how it should be regardless of your identity. We should test when it's relevant and skip testing when it's not.
Sam: Except – that's not actually always what happens.
Bauer: There is a general assumption in some areas and with some doctors that "You're just saying that. You really are having sex, but you're just saying that you're not, and so we need to test anyway." Which, on the one hand, sure, and on the other hand, if it's invasive, if it's something somebody doesn't want, they shouldn't have to do it anyway, regardless of their orientation. Mandatory pregnancy tests because it is peeing in a cup. is maybe lower of an issue even if it's happening when people don't want it to be happening than, for example, pap smears. The level of invasiveness is so much higher and it is actually not relevant if you have never had sex and I know people whose gynecologists do not believe that they have never had sex and require it to be able to continue having care.
Sam: This is a great case study. Guidelines don't clearly address pap smears for people who've never had penetrative sex, we know less sex lowers risk, but we don't have definitive data to say that zero penetration means zero need for screening. What we DO know is that pap smears can be uncomfortable or anxiety inducing for many people. So, it's important to think about individualized risk-benefit discussions that center patient priority.
Richard: Like discussing less frequent testing or offering newer, less invasive options like a self swab.
Gaby: If this sounds interesting, we've got an episode on Paps coming out later this season. Stay tuned.
Sam: But getting back to Bauer's point, the routine pap is just one example of how rigid assumptions about sexual activity in medicine can ignore a patient's identity and sideline their comfort in the exam room.
Richard: And all of this can understandably lead to mistrust, to feeling how hard it can be to know whether it's even safe to say you're an ace or aro person to your provider.
Bauer: And so when you're ace or aro deciding whether or not you're going to tell a provider. One, are they going to be a jerk about it? Two, are they even going to know what it means? Do you have to give an impromptu educational lesson? If you do, are they going to believe you? And if they do or do not believe you, are they going to recommend or require that you do tests you don't want to do? Or are they going to see it as a symptom?
Sam: This, as with any type of coming out in healthcare spaces is exhausting and in many cases means people choose not to disclose their identities.
Cody: A fear of those negative experiences leads ace and aro people to go into healthcare situations and choose not to disclose their ace and aro identities, which then creates a situation of not getting full care as an ace and aro person. Their practitioner is not able to really treat them as the person that they are in that space because of fear and because of nondisclosure.
Sam: Or like in Cody's case it may lead to complete disengagement with care.
Cody: I met with a new therapist when I moved to Ohio and talked about being asexual and this person like denied that that was a real thing. In my session with them, so like immediately nothing productive or therapeutic can happen in that space because the person that I'm trusting to help me denies the fact of my existence or tells me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm, when I say I'm an asexual person.
Richard: This may sound familiar from other episodes of QHP, the exhaustion of having to out yourself or explain core parts of who you are and the decision to avoid care or hide your identity as a result.
Gaby: But I feel like usually we follow that up by saying something like, "Well, that's what's amazing about queer health spaces," or "Come to Pride Clinic 'cause we won't do that." But a few of the people we interviewed did clarify that queer clinics aren't always inclusive of a-spectrum people.
Richard: Clinicians may not have as much experience working with ace or aro people, for example. And then there are other ace or a people who don't feel comfortable in queer spaces because queer identities don't feel relevant to them.
Cody: I think a lot of the times we sort of imagine this fictitious LGBTQ person who sort of stands in as a representative of all the things, and it's very easy for ace and aro and non binary folks to get left out of those conversations because we're treating a kind of construction of a queer person, making sure that the practitioner that you're talking to understands that LGBTQ includes a lot of different experiences and understands the distinctions between them
Sam: For Cody, asking about prior ace experiences is a key way to make sure that they're seeing people who can provide the care they need.
Cody: I ask, mental health care professionals: have you ever worked with an ace person before? Do you have any experience in training? Do you have any training around ace and aro competencies? Make sure that you're asking questions so that you know what you are dealing with when you're going into that space, you can feel empowered to have those conversations. The care is for you. So make sure that you feel empowered to lead that process.
Sam: And if cold calling a clinic or office doesn't seem like your cup of tea, Bauer does have a site she created where people can recommend ace and aro affirming professionals, which we will link to in our show notes.
Richard: Like a yellow pages of sorts.
Gaby: Except maybe like gray, black and purple pages because those are the ace colors.
Sam: And for our studious listeners, you can file that away for the next click bait queer article about queer community flags and colors.
Gaby: Speaking of click bait, let's make like a Buzzfeed listicle and summarize.
Richard: Did you just age yourself with a Buzzfeed reference like I did with a phone book reference?
Gaby: I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. I'm just gonna summarize. Ace and aro folks need healthcare just like anyone else, but it's complicated because medicine often assumes everyone wants sex and romance the same way.
Sam: Specifically, the medical world can have rigid assumptions about what normal sexual activity looks like, which can lead to irrelevant or invasive care.
Richard: Medical spaces can pathologize asexuality as a symptom or consequence of trauma and even frame it as something to be fixed.
Gaby: And all of this harms patients, ignores their live reality and discourages a spectrum people from disclosing their identities or feeling truly comfortable in clinic.
Richard: Lastly, it helps to ask providers about their experience with ace and aro patients to find affirming care.
Sam: We're talking about these pain points, not just to name the challenges, but to imagine and create a future where ace and aro folks receive truly understanding, respectful and affirming care, where everyone can feel seen and heard and supported in their healthcare journey.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Richard: Okay, let's get us back on track. What does affirming care for ace and aro people look like? We've spent a lot of time already on this episode talking about what goes wrong, but let's talk about what helps.
Gaby: To be honest, we don't fully know yet. There's actually a big gap in research about what ace and aro people need in healthcare settings.
Cody: A lot of times ace folks are just included in with other LGBTQ folks. And so, you know , in the sample size, there's, like, four of them. And so you're not really getting anything.
Richard: This is partly because ace and aro identities are so often undervalued, under-recognized or dismissed, making it hard within the already small community to get resources to explore what inequities might even exist.
Sam: And even when we do have data, it's often incomplete.
Cody: In terms of like health disparities for ace and aro folks, we are just at a very early point of even understanding what they are. There are certainly studies that make some connections between ace and aro folks and experiences of depression, experiences of anxiety and loneliness, but we don't really have a full picture about what health experiences and outcomes are happening for ace and aro people. And we also don't really know yet what's happening for older ace and aro folks, and that's like an important place to, like, figure out what's going on. How are these older ace and aro folks navigating. aging? How are they navigating other kinds of health disparities? How are they navigating, things like, like, like cancer or obesity and other kinds of problems? We don't really quite know just yet. So lots of fertile ground to learn for those communities.
Gaby: So the one study we did look at, and we'll cite it in the show notes, found that ace folks were more likely to disclose their identities to mental health providers than to other medical providers. And the people who had positive experiences in clinic were the ones who ended up having clinicians who actually knew what asexuality was and who accepted it completely.
Richard: This may sound obvious, but it's worth repeating. Affirming care means clinicians actually know what asexuality is, don't dismiss it, and don't try to explain it away as a symptom of something else. And when they don't, they take steps to educate themselves about it.
Sam: So: what does affirming care for ace and aro folks look like in practice?
Cody: I think what makes a space ace or aro affirming is a clinician who is curious. That's an important part. Because we are talking about experiences that are spectrums of experience just hearing "I am ace or aro" you really can't get the whole story. So approaching that I'm an asexual patient with a sense of curiosity. "Well, tell me what that means for you."
Gaby: And for Bauer, that starts with asking questions
Bauer: I've sent people to my primary care doctor who is not necessarily queer, informed in any way, but is thorough, asks a lot of questions, knows that I've been in polyamorous relationships, and can, and remembers that the next time she sees me to ask what I need to get tested for XYZ, blah blah blah. Because good primary care is good primary care. So I think that there is a benefit to creating a relationship with a patient in a healthcare field that includes conversations about their orientation, identity, gender identity, all these kinds of things, because it will improve the quality of care. And just asking because you're curious or just asking because you're supposed to ask a bunch of questions where it's not actually building a relationship with the person.
Sam: Right. It's not about turning your patient into a curiosity project. It's about asking questions in order to build trust and provide relevant care.
Richard: This kind of care happens with providers who don't start from assumptions, but instead lead with genuine curiosity, asking questions to build trust and understand their patients as whole people, not as puzzles, check boxes, or someone to be fixed.
Sam: At the end of the day, talking about these pain points isn't just to name what's wrong. It's about building a vision for what care could and should look like so that ace and aro folks can feel seen, safe and supported in healthcare spaces and get the affirming care that they deserve.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Gaby: So far, we've been talking a lot about healthcare on this episode. But healthcare isn't the only place where there are these assumptions about what's normal and where these assumptions can clash with what ace and aro people actually want and need.
Sam: Another place this tension comes up is physical intimacy.
Richard: As a reminder, asexuality is a spectrum. Some ace identified people do sometimes feel some sexual desire. We talk about this in context of an identity called demisexuality in our first episode, but importantly, anyone who is ace can choose to have sex.
Sam: And – quick gut check, if you heard Demi Lovato and not demisexuality, we do really recommend our first episode. Here's Cody.
Cody: Asexuality in specific is a description of one's experience of sexual attraction. It is a very specific definition. That doesn't necessarily imply any relationship to sex or relationships otherwise. There are lots of reasons why people have sex beyond sexual attraction. Sometimes it's just to sort of enjoy a physical thing that is fun for you to have. Sometimes it's a way to express other kinds of connections with someone. So you can not experience sexual attraction, but still find some reason or enjoyment or pleasure in the act itself and include that in relation. So that's why we can have ace folks who are sexually active with partners.
Gaby: So this tension between not feeling sexual desire, but maybe still wanting to try something sexual to see if it feels right, it's something that Kj is also familiar with.
Kj: In that novel Loveless by Alice Oseman, there's this whole narrative element where this girl ends up kissing someone who's attracted to her because she wants so much to be able to return the feeling. And so she tries to do that. doing the thing that they want to do and that she believes will help her know if she wants any more of it. And the novel and the characters rake her across the coals for kissing someone who was attracted to her if she was aro/ace, as if it was wrong for her to find out if she likes it, or to try to show a way of expressing affection that mattered to the other person.
Richard: This example is really useful because it introduces another theme. The idea that ace people may want to engage in physical intimacy to figure out if they want to be physically intimate.
Gaby: Learning what we want, where our boundaries are in sexual relationships, it's not always straightforward for anyone. In fact, it rarely is, and sometimes that means that exploration is on the table.
Kj: Yeah, I think there has to be space for discovery and trial, otherwise we're all complete humans the second we're born.
Sam: Let's pause for a second to say the following: exploration doesn't have to be on the table. If you're thinking about engaging in physical intimacy as an a-spectrum person, reflecting on motivation is super important.
Bauer: There's like a big fear that I'm going to be alone. "I'm not going to find somebody that is willing to be with me if I don't feel comfortable having sex with them, or I'm going to just have to have sex with somebody that I don't want.
Richard: Thinking about where this is coming from, a place of security with relationship or insecurity with a relationship can be really helpful to parse out the "why" of it all.
Bauer: There is this concept of, insecurity sex that people are sometimes more willing to do than sex when the relationship is secure, meaning: when somebody really wants to be in a relationship with somebody else, there are so many different things going on that they might end up doing something that they wouldn't do if they weren't so enthralled in creating the relationship. And so sometimes that can encourage ace people to have sex when they normally wouldn't. And then that's something to watch out for everybody, especially if like relationships start falling apart, that kind of thing.
Sam: At the end of the day, Bauer's point was do a gut check if it feels like you're stretching in ways you wouldn't consider a timeout from exploring.
Bauer: Please do not, do something where the word violate seems like a reasonable term, please don't. What I'm not going to put on the table is for the ace person to stretch themselves to have sex when they do not want to.
Gaby: So if there isn't any stretching involved and sexual exploration can feel right, Bauer's got some process points.
Bauer: I ask the ace partner: your partner has physical needs that are not being met? We know this. Do you want it to change? Do you want to feel more comfortable to have sex more often with your partner or to do different things, this, that, or the other? Because I am not putting on the table you being encouraged in any way to have sex when you don't want to. And sometimes, legitimately, the answer is yes.
Richard: So getting down to brass tacks, what does it look like?
Bauer: So I think it's really important to get a little bit in the weeds of what sex is and what is comfortable and what's not comfortable and what is this is fine for me and great for you. And you don't have to have enthusiasm all the time, but you do need to understand what you're doing and know that you're okay with doing it. I think I am not super comfortable with stretching. Yeah, if you want to try something out, every, I would suggest anybody, if you feel comfortable, try something out. If you don't like it, don't do it.
Richard: And if you don't know what could even be on the table, Bauer's got resources for you.
Bauer: So these are two very different resources. One of which is, they do the same thing though. One is Scarlet Teen's Yes, No, Maybe list, literally made for teenagers on the one hand, and then on the other hand - big jump - BDSM consent lists. So I would really recommend going through something like that, it's much easier when other people have suggested the items, because you're already in there trying to figure out. I think it's helpful to go through on your own. I think it's helpful to go through with a partner because there are also options for things where you're It's much more of a sexual experience for one person than the other.
Sam: Just as a reminder, the menu of things can be really broad, like maybe you're using certain body parts or not others,
Bauer: Because there are certain kinds of sex where maybe if you're using your hands, the other person can be having a phenomenal, incredibly sexy time, and your body is not engaged in the same way. But you're gonna have to really talk about it.
Sam: Or maybe you're just trying to figure out your relationship to any kind of physical touch, which is something Kj also brought up.
Kj: And the past year or so, when I've been exploring what I'm saying is touch sensitivity, but I think it's very linked to my asexuality and demiromanticism, that I'm on a long term hiatus from hugs. And it's challenging because physical touch is so important, and it's this expression of this loving gift and presence, and it does feel like a form of rejection but it's also something that I've been doing my whole life because I thought I had to and didn't know that I was allowed to not want it. So, giving myself consent to have boundaries has been a very big part of coming out in middle age.
Sam: we wanna highlight something that Kj said. Part of what makes all of this tricky is that saying no or not right now can feel like you're rejecting someone you care about when it's really about making sure your needs are respected.
Richard: But trying something once, like say hugs, doesn't mean that you've signed up to do it forever.
Kj: I think people assume everyone wants to do this, so if you're doing it, you're giving your blanket consent to do it forever. I don't know that it's that different for someone on the ace or aro spectrum than anyone who's trying to discover their sexual preferences and interests and feelings.
Sam: It is so important to remember because consent isn't a one and done deal. For ace people, but also for anyone, communication is a really key part of navigating physical and sexual intimacy.
Cody: As an asexual person in relationships with allo folks, no assumptions can be made about what will be on the table for me. I am an ace person for whom boundaries can be a little dynamic and changing. I have to have ongoing conversations with my partners about what my body is open to, what I am open to. And that is never like, "Once I say yes, then, then we're done." and that's always going to be on the table. It's an ongoing conversation about About where I am in relation to my body, in relationship to the relationship; it's an ongoing process of negotiating what's open and what's possible and what's able to be explored.
Richard: Especially when ace folks are in relationships with allosexual partners, it's even more crucial to not assume anything about what's quote on the table.
Cody: For a lot of relationships, between allosexual people, there are some kinds of consent that we can imply to some degree or expect, you sort of assume that the person is sexually interested in you and that sex is going to be part of your relationship. That's a different dynamic when an asexual person enters into that kind of relationship . Consent then becomes enormously important because you have to have these very specific conversations about "what I am willing to do, what I am open to do, what I'm open to exploring with you that may be on the table, may be off the table." So conversations about consent are enormously important in those kinds of relationships because the expected rules or what might commonly be understood to be on the table isn't necessarily so
Gaby: This might honestly feel like a lot to keep track of and it may feel isolating or like someone is the "problem" when needs don't line up. But as Bauer points out, you are absolutely not the problem here.
Bauer: Expectations I hear from a lot of ace and aro people is I am going to be the problem, and in reality it seems like
1. You're not a problem
2. Whether or not it's going to fit, other people are bringing in things that don't fit with a lot of other people.
You are not the only person who has requirements, everybody has requirements, particularly around people's healthcare and sex. And exploring relationships with allosexual people, or ace people, I would assume that you are a valuable human being with your own needs coming into a potential relationship with somebody else who also has their own needs. you, you do not necessarily have disproportional needs
Sam: bottom line, your needs and boundaries are valid. It's not about fitting a mold or living up to expectations. It's about clear communication and mutual respect.
Richard: So: in this section we've talked about how navigating intimacy as an ace person means: self-reflection to make sure physical intimacy is something you actually want to engage with.
Sam: exploration
Richard: where you can think of intimacy like a menu. There are lots of different options and ways to connect physically and communicating your boundaries and checking in often because what feels right for you one day might change the next.
Sam: And none of this process is a sign of weakness or confusion. It's part of building a relationship dynamic that truly works for you.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Richard: Earlier, we discussed how ace and aro folks often fear being alone when their needs around sex and romance don't match societal expectations. Bauer explains how this fear keeps coming up.
Bauer: Generally, a large concern that we find, that I find both through therapy work running AcesNYC and also in the survey, is a profound focus on relationships, partly because the relationships are going to be different than what we're taught to expect or believe. There's a big fear that I'm going to be alone. I'm not going to find somebody that is willing to be with me if I don't feel comfortable having sex with them, or I'm going to have to have sex I don't want to have to be able to keep a partner.
Gaby: We live in a society that elevates romantic and sexual intimacy as the highest forms of connection. And we do this so much that other bonds like friendship can be sidelined when somebody pairs up.
Bauer: There is this pervasive, frequent fear of future, eternal loneliness, of an ace ace/aro person being alone because they don't find a partnership, And in some ways, that is a legitimate, real thing. There are less of us. It’s harder to find each other. It's not necessarily super well known at this point in time, so even if there are people out there that you might end up in relation with, either romantically, platonically – but some kind of committed long term stable situation, you have less options. There's also a fear, and it happens repeatedly, that the core support network and or close connections that they have will dissolve once quote unquote, something better, which is their primary partnership, comes through. Which I think is reinforced by how we structure our society and put that partnership above most other things and don't necessarily value raising children with people you're not partnered with. Romantically or sexually. Having larger communities, even literal housing structures are not made up for people to be separate, on purpose, so that you have your and you don't have to deal with other people, which I can speak from experience, dealing with other people is work, and it is hard, and it is worthwhile to me, personally. And this idea of what is my life going to look like, why there's a fear around being so disconnected and isolated and alone and losing one's friends to partnerships is a large part of it, but does not have to be.
Gaby: And we're naming all of this because it helps make sense of why loneliness and isolation show up for a-spectrum people. And it also reminds people that they're not alone in feeling lonely
Sam: But it doesn't have to be like this. We can imagine and create different ways of connecting and caring. Even if society favors coupledom, most people, ace or not, want much broader networks of support and connection than just two people in a couple.
Bauer: A lot of people want a village. A lot of people, if they get their own, then they don't need another one.
Richard: And that village can look like chosen family, communal living, or creating structures where friendship remains really central. Bauer has seen this happen through her work with Aces NYC.
Bauer: I walked into the room, and there was 15 to 20 people, most of whom I had never seen before in my whole life, almost all of whom had been members of Aces NYC. And that was how they found each other. And it's fundamentally changed their relationship makeup. They have friends, they have community, how they have people who get them. They have access to connection and understanding that they did not have before, which is so valuable.
Sam: And for some people, an expansive, ace affirming world is about naming and claiming alternative forms of partnership that aren't romantic or sexual, but are still deeply meaningful. Kj described this through having a queer platonic partner.
Kj: so I have a queer platonic partner or someone I refer to as my queer platonic partner cause neither of us are romantically involved with the other, and both of us would like romantic partners of our own. but we're each other's person, more than best friends. even if functionally there is no difference of them being a best friend. It's still queering our cultural idolization of the couple. Just the idea that only a romantic or sexual partner can be the person who is integrated into your life structure.
Sam: There are so many ways we can create a world that's more welcoming and affirming for ace and aro folks.
Richard: It takes effort and intention, but building understanding makes all the difference.
Sam: And as Bauer reminds us, the more we come together, the more we can ease those fears and build real connections that matter.
Bauer: The more community building we do, the more knowledge people have about the asexual spectrum in general, and the more we come together, the more that we can mitigate and create connections with each other that are generally some of the biggest fears that people have. It's gonna, it's a lot of work and it takes a long time, but we are doing things and it is getting better slowly.
[QHP THEME MUSIC STARTS]
Richard: QHP is a power sharing project that puts community stories in conversation with healthcare expertise to expand autonomy for sexual and gender minority folks.
Sam: Thank you to our community voice, Kj Swanson, and our healthcare experts, Bauer and Cody Daigle-Orians.
Gaby: Check out our website, www.queerhealthpod.com.
Richard: And please help others find this information by leaving a review and subscribing on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Sam: We are on social media. Our handle is at Queer Health Pod and reach out to us there.
Richard: And as always, thank you to Lonnie Ginsburg who composed our awesome theme music, and to the Josiah Macy Jr Foundation who supported some of the tech we use to produce these episodes.
Sam: Opinions on this podcast are our own and do not represent the opinions of any of our affiliated institutions. Even though we are doctors. Do not use this podcast as medical advice. Instead, consult with your own healthcare provider.
[QHP THEME MUSIC ENDS]